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 Post Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:45 pm 
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Chinaski wrote:
and another thing!....

just kidding. Songs, i'm afraid i'm not nearly as prolific as you are. one long post a night is my limit, i think. :D


*sideways eyed laughter*

I didn't say you had to *do* anything about it- you asked, I responded with my own honest, utterly self serving reply.

*big cheesy grin*

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full marks to Curt for starting this great thread!


I concur! Awesome stuff.

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Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far they can go. ~ TS Elliot


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 Post Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:40 pm 
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I would like to introduce the contract I work with in my life at the holistic institute and community called the at-will contract. Two parties state what they need/want/expect from the other in terms of services/conduct/attitude/respect. If both parties agree to the terms, an at-will contract is entered into. This contract allow either party to terminate the contract for any reason or explanation required. One or both may be given, but it is not part of the agreement.

This agreement works very well with non-dysfunctional adults who are always growing and willing to look in a mirror. It also works when parties come from full integrity and bring their best, rather than just enough. Basically, everyone is self-managing. What management there is provides for coordination of the bigger picture. Management looks out for those providing the services. It is a coach/team scenario if the division even shows itself. Very different from the virus infected and controlled world "out there". Which unfortunately, many live in full time.


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 Post Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:22 pm 
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I always prickle when signing my name on a document that I didn't create in the first place. I am just agreeing because *this is the way things are, moron, don't think too hard coz we do the thinking for you*

Then you later end up with a need to terminate and there are more documents to sign, and more lawyers come on board to really confirm that you signed up for hell on paper and they are your only saviours because they know the language and you don't. Days of trying to make sense of the most boring, frustrating, minefield of expressions. No no no you silly sausage, trying to sort all this out by yourself, you can't do that, says the solicitor who you finally ring. *Pay me, go back to sleep*

The design is fucking genius when you think about it. a contract designed to be a convenient money maker in the future .. and designed to keep the pain and subsequent systemic support troops in practice. They love a good misery because it bumps up their numbers and increases their bonuses.

And that is just the contract that started out by sealing a marriage.

Where is the love in that?

Seriously, I love a good wedding or bonding ceremony. I am truly happy for those who manage to make it and the love is deep. For some like me who did it because of fear of having my children out of wedlock was crazy. I know that now. But what you sign up for, in the current legal system, you pay for in one way or the other.

The at-will contract is a good one Hradagost. As you say though, to run with that cleanly, the virus has to be dumped and burned.

Great thread Curt. I have more thoughts on this and will consider posting again.

,

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 Post Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:57 am 
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Zebra wrote:

I always prickle when signing my name on a document that I didn't create in the first place.




I expect that the vast majority of people don't read what they sign when, for example, signing papers to buy/lease a car or home mortgage.

I just had to not only sign but get notarized a form to keep my children from having to endure vaccinations based on "religious beliefs". ( Ha ... ask me about religion ...) That is another one where the vast majority have no clue. The media doesn't report all the neurological damage and death from such. Try doing research and you had best pay particular attention to who is funding the research (read big pharma has it's greedy paws almost everywhere).


... but I digress ...


Kudos to Curt (spanking Jack) for bringing us this thread.


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 Post Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 6:33 pm 
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I too am married. This is my third experiment with marriage, my first where I am openly pansexual and poly.

This marriage is a constantly evolving creature, one in which we've periodically stood back to look at what stories might be running around connection, what stories run on a day to day basis, how insidious the constricting

I've come to be wary of those who speak of 'forevers', the mythology of One True Love, the 'two hearts as one', twin flame, 'romantic' ideology and other such perspectives that carry the virus so deeply embedded in them that there's frequently no way the individual can even see it. I more and more slide past those who have this set as their marker for connection, because I know it's going to end badly if I connect with them; they're going to spend their whole time trying to get me to be something I'm not and I'm going to spend my time declining the construment.

I'm in a connection where Triffid and I demand or ask less and less of each other, preferring to see what just unfolds naturally and flowing from there. Triffid is very passionate and dedicated to his Art and creativity, and the remaining emotional space he has is directed towards me; he has no interest in or desire for multiple connections because his realm is not the energetic one, it's something else, and in being with me he finds enough similarity and resonance to create a space for the experience of being grokked and enough dissonance for there to be interesting spaces for evolution.

My own signal is very different: his pace and expression of evolution is one that moves in a way that, if I am restricted to it, begins to drive me wildly berserk; part of the learning curve between us has been about the grokking of how to work with our different ways of Being without either of us feeling like we're being viewed as 'wrong'.

Everything is food for my evolution, for exploring the signal; I am a lover of fascinating signals and when I find one that really gets my attention I want to explore it- I am totally aware that I'm all 'oooooooooohoooohoooo, Shiny!' when something gets my attention, because a) so little does in this paradigm so when it happens it's pretty yumsticks and b) Shiny to me means there's evolution for me in that space, however that ends up being, and evolution to me is the best candy in the 'Verse.

The thing I've come to grok is that the other individual frequently is operating on the 'what this all means' frequency, the 'we need to define and label this', the contract, the 'ok, now we're together, here's what's going to happen', and in the past I haven't paid attention to that until it's come up and smacked me in the head, because I've been too busy nomnomnomming on whatever it is in their signal that is my personal catnip. Then we traverse into the Wonderful World of Goo- where all the agendas come out to play in the light- or not, as the case may be, depending on the agenda of the other around not being Seen at all costs- and the nomnom factor goes away, buried beneath ten tons of virus.

What I'm actually wanting, deep down, is to have a circle of intimacy, consisting of a number of individuals who love me and who I love, and with whom there's enough nomnomnommy factor to make the connection delicious, and who have enough consciousness to make the triangulation- of their Self, of me, of the element of 'us' and of their connections with the other members of the circle- way fun and evolutionary. A group of Beings that are fundamentally linked by their love for each other, in whatever way that manifests, and their passion for evolution on every level, with no limiters. That's what I have been a part of in the Realms, and I am beginning to intuit that some of the Beings I've known in the Realms are in this one as well, and that there's the possibility of just such an arrangement emerging in my life at some point. This makes me delightedly squee and bouncy- I absolutely love exploration and I know that heading off into the unknown, in the company of truly interesting, wondrous and nommy Beings, is one of the funnest Things To Do that there is.

That's my thing. It's not the thing of the majority. This I have learned.

I'm posting this now, so that I can continue it. :)

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Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far they can go. ~ TS Elliot


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 Post Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:50 pm 
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Further ruminations:

I am aware that, deep down, one of the reasons I have gotten married in the past is because I didn't want to raise children on my own. Marriage, I've observed, is something that emerged to replace community, which is where and how children were raised before the Cult of Property managed to spread its insidious influence across the planet via colonisation. Do you notice the word 'colon' in colonisation? Yes, even back in the beginning, they knew it was going to give everyone the shits...

but I digress. I'm aware that part of the issue of marriage for me has been wanting to not have to struggle in poverty while raising my kids. Part of the mythology of marriage, the hidden contract, is that the male is going to provide for the female as compensation for carrying and raising children isolated from a supportive and nurturing group of females, which is how women best cope with the physical, emotional and psychological demands of raising children. I've tried my best to create such communities for my children with, at best, mediocre results- quite simply, such communities best operate when consciously, intentionally crafted and I've encountered very, very few that had that sort of interest.

Was marriage for me back then a practical arrangement? Absolutely. If I wanted to now it would be totally easy for me to get pregnant again- the physical strain would damn near kill me. It did in the past. Part of the illusion of marriage that is fed to women- often to bespell them into *not* creating powerful, feminine based communities- is that the male is going to take care of them through their pregnancies, post partum exhaustion, breastfeeding, child raising and struggle to keep a bead on their *own* evolution- and of course, in a nuclear family arrangement, this is an insane vision. At best, one can pull it off for the first child- but add another child to that mix before the first is much, much older and you get years of no sleep, disrupted path, conflicted emotions, creative struggle and yadda yadda

unless one has a creative, supportive community helping out

or the individual raises their child alone.

The marriage 'contract' is embedded with the unspoken promises around the issue of pregnancy and children- the pale imitation of what a greater community used to provide; respite from childraising, time to be alone as a couple, others for the child to triangulate with, other Beings of all ages to experience and learn from, a living museum, university, playcentre and adventure ride all in one

and the virus traded all that off for patriarchy and the insanity of nuclear family, of the illusion of 'two as one' and 'coupledom'

Yes, I fell into that hole when I was young and in the course of considering my own marriage this time- done before all my work on sui generis had coalesced and my consciousness about such things had kicked in- I can see that the thread of financial security also wove into my desire and agreement to get married again: Triffid and I were already aware that we were going to have a child together and I didn't want to do that with more insecurity.

The idiocy here is that, deep down, I knew it was a crock of shit: I've *been* married and know that the 'security' is utter dwibble, and I also know I've walked away with nothing but my children from situations that were destroying me, rather than settle for any bullshit 'security'- but here in Oz we have social security payments that provide for single parents, so I've never had to physically struggle to work *and* raise my kids. Perhaps this is why I planned to be born in this country, who knows- the provision of this support allowed me to map the virus without interruption, so I know the conflicting ideas of 'security' and freedom were oddly interwoven in my internal fantasm around marriage.

Another reason I married Triffid was from a deeper unconscious desire that I've only started tracking since considering Curt's original thread

and of course it's more virus manipulation and contortion, disguised beneath layers of social acceptability. One of the things about marriage is that it really does change the relationship between the two individuals- there's a sense of greater connection that is difficult to express to those who haven't been married, as artificially constructed as the platform for this might be. What I know about my Self is that my emotional boredom factor is high: individuals simply stop interesting me at different points and I tend to shut them out for whatever reason, *if* I feel that there isn't enough signal of intentional consciousness towards enriching or evolving the connection

and marriage was a way of keeping me there. *I* was nailing my own feet to the floor to try and stop my Self from

Image

growing my wings back, because the children needed me to be a certain kind of Being and I had to prevent the song in the core of my Being

Image

rising up to sweep me away from them. So I nailed my self to the floor.

The billion dollar question is: would I have done all this if I'd been raised in and inhabiting a strong, conscious, feminine centered and sui generis community? And my instincts respond with a strong and clear 'no'- I would never have gotten married. I'd have formed strong and evolving connections, yes, but marriage? No.

Of course, the thing of trying to nail my evolution to the floor didn't work. That shit never does. Triffid and I are intending to dissolve our state marriage not because we're getting a 'divorce' but because we're wanting a third party free, constant choice relationship- and the constant choosing is something else I want to write about...

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Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far they can go. ~ TS Elliot


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 Post Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 8:26 am 
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Thanks to everyone for contributing to this thread. Lots of honest and different opinions, and I'm glad people have gone in so many directions with it.

--I like the white wizard's model of the at-will contract. For responsible adults this sounds like a good way to go. It sounds like less of a contract and more of an ad hoc agreement subject to change by either party at any time. There's flexibility built in, which is pretty ideal.

--Zeebs, I hear you.... 'The Law' and its weasel priest-class do indeed have us all by the balls. And it is very scary that they have their own language and we have virtually no choice but to deal with them when we're in their court--pun intended.

--Chinaski... :lol: You've earned your name here, man. Bukowski would be proud, I've got a feeling.

--Calz, I'm glad you fought for your kids, and I'm sorry you had to go through all that shit. It's a screwed up situation when you have to fight with the state to keep them from deliberately messing with your children.

--Songstress, Wow. Where to start. Your point about community being replaced by patriarchy--and how this results in marriage and the nuclear family and ownership and contracts is all stuff that resonates deeply with some of the things Terence McKenna talks about.

In his view our ancient ancestors used to live in orgiastic community where paternity was unknown and unknowable because everyone was with everyone else, and having too much fun to care. In that system, (where the magic mushroom was plentiful) the children were taken care of by the whole community. That sure sounds a lot more fun to me, I have to say. It sounds like a return to having strong female community would benefit women and men equally...

Where you are with Triffid right now, wanting to ditch the state commitment and get into a constant choice relationship sounds a lot like what the Wizard was saying about at-will agreements. I see the wisdom in this. :idea:

...I take your point about your not having wanted to have a child without the marriage in place. i suppose I felt the same.

...What you wrote about nailing your feet to the floor so you would stay with your kids and keep yourself from evolving for their sake is honesty on another level.

...I hope it's not always a strict choice between evolution and having children, but I can already see it.

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 Post Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:58 pm 
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Curt wrote:
Your point about community being replaced by patriarchy--and how this results in marriage and the nuclear family and ownership and contracts is all stuff that resonates deeply with some of the things Terence McKenna talks about.

In his view our ancient ancestors used to live in orgiastic community where paternity was unknown and unknowable because everyone was with everyone else, and having too much fun to care. In that system, (where the magic mushroom was plentiful) the children were taken care of by the whole community. That sure sounds a lot more fun to me, I have to say. It sounds like a return to having strong female community would benefit women and men equally...


*in wonder* That kind of community is pre-anunnaki, the kind that existed here but even more so- it wasn't just the plant world but every high frequency, joyous energetic connection that was up for exploration. It's the 'heaven' that the sapiens constantly feel they fell from... which in a way, they did.

Always falling upwards...

That kind of community is what I have longed for all my life, because I remember it- and, intuitively, so do many others, which is why there's so much shellshock amongst the Otherkind. What a gorgeous reminder.

Quote:
Where you are with Triffid right now, wanting to ditch the state commitment and get into a constant choice relationship sounds a lot like what the Wizard was saying about at-will agreements. I see the wisdom in this. :idea:



*nodding* Part of the thing about marriage contracts is the unspoken assumption that without some kind of 'binding' ritual individuals won't be capable of the integrity, honesty and commitment to a vision and path to simply choose the other- and the co-creation- every day; it sets up a situation of a platform where one struggles at times in the connection (because there's the sense of have to rather than choice, a preconditioning on multiple layers which implies, covertly, subtly, that connection with another Being has to have times of conflict that will need an external authority's binding to weather.

It's insidious, isn't it? The implication that one will not choose the other Being, personal and connection evolution and co-creation during challenging times without the notion of some 'vow' binding us to the process. I've been learning a great deal about my Self, the creative and personal power of my choice, releasing my reliance on any other Being for anything while holding the space for the richness and fluid expression of my Self *and* my experience of those I love, those I Shine with on any level. I'm learning how profoundly world shifting it is to move away from all the embedded programs and simply open to what's actually present, the energy and possibility, rather than the process of contortions and ultimate distortion via my own programs coming up against the programs of the other.

Quote:
...I take your point about your not having wanted to have a child without the marriage in place. i suppose I felt the same.

...What you wrote about nailing your feet to the floor so you would stay with your kids and keep yourself from evolving for their sake is honesty on another level.

...I hope it's not always a strict choice between evolution and having children, but I can already see it.


I am beginning to grok with my own situation with my daughters that it's the idea of what's 'supposed' to happen that is interfering with what is possible: I'm fucking the signal up by scrabbling internally with all these stories, embedded programs of 'what parents are' and 'what childhood is' and all the rest of it rather than opening up my heart and letting me be who I actually am, letting them in on my world and releasing my 'concerns'- which are nothing more than the parroting of 'this is how the world is' according to those that I don't find interesting at all- and letting things be what they are. I've spent my life so far learning that 99.9% of the things I used to freak out and stress about simply aren't real, or have no import in what's actually unfolding- perhaps why in so many native cultures it was the grandparents who raised the children after weaning and the parents went and directed all their fiery, intense energy in other directions; by the time they'd chilled out and gotten mellow about things, they were grandparents and ready to be joyful and laid back about it all. It makes far more sense to me, so that the children get to see their parents being passionately connected to the expression of their Art while the community around them supports the child's needs. I don't stress about things anywhere near as much now, because I know how paradigm filled all those concerns are- I have discovered that I *am* supported by the 'Verse, that it unfolds for my evolution and that of those around me in a perfect, interweaving dance that I couldn't orchestrate better.

Even marriage can be a platform for discovering that there's things beyond the limitations that create the existence of marriage in the first place, which is where I've been flowing with it all: marriage, like the virus, is simply another beautiful mirror for individuals to discover as much- or as little- as they wish about their Self and that of the other, about connection and the mindblowing possibility it can be- or the anorexic imitation that is touted in this paradigm- and about living without agenda, utterly peaceful and free with Self and the choices of others regardless of what those might be.

Children raised in love, surrounded by love, by Beings joyously embodying sui generis in every moment, the constant embracing of flow and creativity in whatever way that manifests, Beings free to experience whatever it is that their integrity and evolution calls them to- that's what I'm holding in my space. For me, it's an exquisite vision to live into. :)

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Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far they can go. ~ TS Elliot


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 Post Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:16 pm 
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I have resonated at different times with this man's work and perspective. I offer this with a view to opening up some discussion regarding these concepts, triangulating- I greatly enjoy his view of love, what it is and what it isn't.

All the infinite signals and possibilities, the joy of swimming through the signal finding what leads to our individual and collective greater evolution...

:)

Image

This photo is taken from an inamorati workshop (inamorati= my nongender adaptation of inamorato/inamorata, a word for lover/partner/spouse/beloved that has no essence of contract to it) in which waterdance was used as a medium for exploring what was present and possible for each particular expression of togetherness (couples, triads, diads, whatever). For a physical kinesthetic Being such as my Self, being able to explore connection and emotional nuance in the element of emotion its Self would be heavenly indeed...

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Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far they can go. ~ TS Elliot


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 Post Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:29 pm 
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Nice .. thanks Songs. Falling into love with yourself. Filling yourself up.

Can´t help but notice though the love filled fur balls around me right now - they are so full of it - it just spills over.

My life as a dog .. brilliant

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