songsfortheotherkind.com

I've been thinking a lot about the contracts that we make with one another; I know that exploring (and dissolving) these contracts in light of sui generis principles is a large part of what we're 'doing' here.

....Taking apart the magic spells that constitute voluntary servitude seems a very valuable goal for any individual so inclined.

But here's the rub.

I am married. This is sort of like the capo de tuti contracts. It is not only a contract metaphorically speaking, but is an actual legally binding one as well.

In this instance, I'm happy being a party to it. I have a cool wife with a good personality and a fine cute face and a nice Irish accent. She makes me happy. We want to have a couple of kids, train them up in our Kung Fu and set them loose to discover it's all crap and find their own.

Would my wife and I be together without the contract? Yes. We would. Do we need it? No. Not really.

But we did it anyway. I'm tempted to say that's fine, and what's the harm.

But a little niggling part of me can't help wondering whether engaging in any contract of this nature is like opening Pandora's box.

Does it condition one to settling for other contracts--ones that are less agreeable?

...Or worse still, are contracts similar to 'TV', i.e., whether you watch period dramas or Jerry Springer it's still just TV-- the programs being secondary to the thing's main objective of entertainment and trancing us out?

Is that how contracts function--that some are more to your liking, but they all serve the same purpose--to bind us?

And that leads me to think about not having contracts--about agreeing with others that we will play some part in their lives, but with an understanding that there will be no contracts.

This can end up being sort of like an anti-contract contract. There are still rules. There are still expectations, i.e., we won't expect x,y,z from each other.

That seems pretty tricky and restrictive, for obvious reasons. But it also seems a bit dangerous because we can easily trick ourselves into believing we're free when we've just embraced the anti-contract instead of the sign-on-the-dotted-line standard variety contract.

What would a world without contracts or anti-contracts look like?

I throw it open to anyone with any thoughts or opinions who can shed light on any of this.

I need a beer.

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...

For a being that wants to give to others, I think that sometimes it's more beneficial to the others to commit to things, rather than be unpredictable. So a being might take on an obligation voluntarily and beneficially to its goal. This version feels completely free of bad ingredients, since it's entirely for the receiving beings' benefit.

In the realm of a free market, I see commitments as useful for beings to each enrich the other by trading things that are more valuable to the other. I do this for something you'll do that I value more, and vice-versa. This form seems to have some good/bad in it. For me, I desire to uphold my commitments, and associate that with integrity that I value highly. So there's some badness associated with not meeting them. I also think of if I just made lots of commitments and duped people constantly, how lousy I'd feel about myself as a being. These seem necessary to motivate me to uphold them, so it seems suspect.

Then there are "commitments" that are more forced/pressured, where you do something because you think someone else wants you to, and if you don't, that they will lash out and threaten your well-being or survival. These are clearly harmful and unwanted. When I probe my involvement in them, I can clearly make out the fear of my survival, as they generally trigger around people I get money and housing from.

When I think about the concept, what keeps sticking is the "be a good person and keep your commitments" morality around it. "Why whould you keep them? Because it's the right thing to do!" So there's some strong stuff around them that can be confusing (I see morality as fundamentally about confusing people as to why something is being done).

I've gone to a group of people that practice Non-Violent Communication and one thing I loved from the start was their encouragement to not be emotionally responsible for others, only yourself. This means that it's the other person's responsibility to speak up when something didn't sit well with them, so that others can contribute to resolution. It's not a person's responsibility to worry about how something might affect each person, and carefully speak in a way that avoids it. So there I felt free, even obligated, to stop worrying about others' experiences and be clear about what's going on for me and make requests if something could be improved for me. So I love the idea of thins kind of informal agreement among people here regarding things everyone is attempting to practice when they remember to. The key is that no one can be held to it, more it's everyone else encouraging each other to practice this and helping each other along. That people have agreed gives others permission to nudge others when it'll help.

it would seem the ultimate declaration of insecurity, Curt, and i'm sure it is in many cases. yet, i can be a bit of a traditionalist and a romantic when the mood strikes.

problem is, those moods are whimsical. getting married for me would be like getting a tattoo, one that i'd likely hate in a matter of months. and it wouldn't necessarily be the person -- it's just the idea of being locked down, as they say. anything that might restrict my freedom of thought or movement sends shivers up my spine. marriage, to me, at this point, conjures images of a thick wet blanket duct-taped to my entire body on a criminally hot day. suffocation!

if marriage represented a one-day commitment that could be renewed as both parties saw fit, i'd be all over it! problem is, people evolve. they change. i'm constantly changing, and couldn't in good conscience promise a woman i'd be the same man 10 years from now. or even 10 minutes from now! how can we possibly know we'll love and be compatible with our current partners' evolved future self? i mean, look at the stats: over 50% of all marriages fail! that doesn't exactly inspire confidence in me.

but as i said earlier, i can be a bit of a romantic, and reserve the right to change my mind. love, as we know, does not respond to logic, no matter how eloquent or seemingly sensical it may be. ask any long-married couple how they do it, and they'll respond that they just "knew" it was the right thing. until i "know it's the right thing", i'll stick with my logic.

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"Ah, fuck it!" -- Zebra

That was brilliant, IMO. I hope you are not away too long, you are a drink of wild, refreshing water. Sometimes a little mossy, or flinty and dry, and sometimes just right and thirst quenching.

BTW, if my being friendly to you puts you in poor standing with some. Drop me a PM and I'll adopt a stance that works.

that pm is on the way

appreciate the kindness 'Gost. i'll admit, i'm a little insecure about commenting on marriage, seeing as though i have no experience.

you've had some enlightening things to say about it in the past (here n now) and this thread could get mighty interesting if we all start soul-baring.

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"Ah, fuck it!" -- Zebra

If individuals are inclined to be like that regarding who one chooses to hang out or connect with, then they're running heteronomy and control, no matter how they might like to gift wrap or rationalise it.

Chinaski wouldn't write the way he does if he was interested in that shite- and I for one am utterly appreciative of that. Hurrah!

I prefer to deal with things in the open, not in secret, when it comes to the group dynamics here. It's that thing between privacy and secrecy- I watch my Self with this one, observe where I fall into the pit of saying things to others that I wouldn't say to the individual concerned because of whatever 'reasons' are coming up- none of which are solid in the sui generis realm. So much secrecy is about attachment to singularity perspective, agenda and judgement- why do I need to hide what it is that I want to say? Hide me? Why would I allow another to put their heteronomy onto me? None of the reasons that one might be able to offer for such behaviour has sui generis in it- just virus and virus based rationalisations.

There is *no way* I'm interested in this happening to the Pub, or to my life.



Evolve with arms wide open or fuck off , tends to be my motto for my Self, but then I'm like that- if that makes me a wicked fairy then oh well, shit happens..



*grinning*

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"For every lie I unlearn, I learn something new"- Ani DiFranco

Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far they can go. ~ TS Elliot

These words are intriguing to me: what is 'romantic' in your mind? How does it behave, what are the ways it expresses itself, what are the stories and paradigms it carries?

Traditionalist- isn't that another way of saying 'heteronomy'? What is traditional, these constructs and roles that each plays within the parameters of whatever subjective interpretation of the stage each individual carries- here's what I'm going to do, here's the story, we'll put our life here, and our stuff there, and it will all be according to this vague thing that I'm waving at but can't articulate, I'll just know when you violate the boundaries of this thing and then shit will happen-

ah, so it feels like I'm looking at 'relationships



faceplant style.

Connection in the past has tended to go all



for pretty much all the reasons you said: I'm flowing with things in a very different way these days, which is what this thread has been calling me to really look at, and it's utterly intriguing and wonderful territory to immerse my Self in, to bring in the evolution of it all in a much more joyous way





~*~

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"For every lie I unlearn, I learn something new"- Ani DiFranco

Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far they can go. ~ TS Elliot

good questions, Songs.

by 'romantic', i suppose i mean 'dreamer', 'idealist', a believer in fairy tales and so on...cuz lets be honest, marriage is a bit of a fairy tale, a long shot; and there *is* a part of me that currently resonates with that, albeit a small one. i acknowledge that it may be something that's been sort of hammered into me since youth. you might say it's a virus-y program i've yet to delete...but i'm not entirely sure.

as a said earlier, love does not respond to logic. if i was currently in love, i acknowledge that my opinion might be vastly different. though generally, what we think of as 'love' is often wrapped up in a web of insecurity, a fear of losing the other, fear of loneliness, fear of this n fear of that. most are more 'in fear' than 'in love'. and trying to separate the love from the rest of it, especially while emotionally involved, is like trying to count grains of sand on a beach.

looking back, i think i was more often 'in fear' than 'in love'. the romantic in me wants to believe, i suppose, that the layers can be properly discerned and a real connection can be made. ironically, a 'real' connection rarely involves contracts -- though it would be ignorant of me to say that some married couples don't have a *real* connection. they do, of course, but it seems counterintuitive to me that part of that connection would involve a contract that in many ways discourages evolution.


traditionalist? well, i'm a bit of a hypocrite here, cuz though i believe monogamy is an unnatural state, it's still something i ask of anyone i may be getting serious with. there *are* practical reasons to go along with the philosophical ones. for example: i don't want to catch herpes ya know, i loathe condoms, and in my early 20's rarely wore them...but the sex was hardly worth it cuz of the rampant paranoia of herpes, warts, aids etc. as an example, after one of these romps i'd usually sit in my room and drink coffee for 3 months, chewing my fingernails to the bone while incessantly inspecting my penis for imagined anamalies. no joke: i went to 3 separate docs because i wanted confirmation that an as yet undiscovered birth mark wasn't really indicative of herpes or warts or whatever . oh, you have no idea! i was born mentally torturing myself! it's a miracle i don't have any of these diseases, and i wanna keep it that way. i've gone thru extremely looong celibate periods as a result.

hey, have i answered your question yet?

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"Ah, fuck it!" -- Zebra

I shall say 'no'

because I like the sound of your ruminating.

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"For every lie I unlearn, I learn something new"- Ani DiFranco

Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far they can go. ~ TS Elliot

and another thing!....

just kidding. Songs, i'm afraid i'm not nearly as prolific as you are. one long post a night is my limit, i think.

full marks to Curt for starting this great thread!

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"Ah, fuck it!" -- Zebra